Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. I have an extra special treat today. I have with me on the podcast Charlie from the British English podcast. Hopefully not going to make a mistake later on with that one. So similar. Charlie, welcome to the show.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Thank you very much for having me. Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. Yes. Not the business English podcast, the British English podcast. But I was actually listening to your show and you have a recurring character called Charlie that is on the business English podcast regularly, am I right?
[00:00:35] Speaker A: This is true. So we had to get the real deal on. The whole thing is modeled around you. The cat is out the bag. Yes.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: Isn't Charlie from Spain?
[00:00:45] Speaker A: He was, but he can be from London on this episode.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: I was thinking it's quite an English name, isn't it? Like, Carlos is a bit more Spanish, isn't it?
[00:00:54] Speaker A: Carlos. Carlos would work. Although in my experience, a lot of our clients, they. They do have English. N. They have their native language. What's your experience with this?
[00:01:02] Speaker B: When I lived in Chile, I would say I'm Charlie and they say, ah, Carlito, Carlos, or I'm not little Charlie. Yeah. So they would often change my name. But yes, of course. Yeah. You could have a new identity in another language, which is great.
[00:01:17] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. So I've invited you down today because as the host, producer and mastermind behind the British English podcast, I wanted to talk about business English tradition, culture and origins here in the UK and within the European sphere as well, because I do believe that permeates over the channel as well, and really more specifically, three key elements of British business English, which we will reveal in just a moment. But as we're both native speakers, it's a warning to the audience to pay attention because it will be done at native speed and the pronunciation won't be perfect. So please pin back your ears and hopefully you enjoy the show. I would like to open the floor with our first key component of British business English. Potentially the most important is small talk.
Small talk within our culture. Would you like to just tell us a little bit about how important this may or may not be to us?
[00:02:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So small talk, I would say, is. Is a fundamental. I should clarify that. I haven't been in an office, a traditional office, for quite some time, but I still understand the culture behind it. At least I think I do. And yeah, in our culture, it's very important whether you're in an office or not to. To use small talk to almost warm up. It's a bit like going to the gym and not stretching. It's.
It's A bit like. Can I think of a better analogy? Probably.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: I really like that.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: I should leave it on the head there. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: Yeah. How. How does it feel, native to native? If we had just jumped straight in to the meat of this podcast. How would that have felt for you? Conditional. How would that have felt had that been true?
God. Would it be awkward, difficult, Easy?
[00:03:12] Speaker B: It would be to the point and I think it would feel a little bit more American. I don't know if I'm right in saying that. I. I would guess it would be a bit more. Time is precious. Let's cut to the chest. Let's do what we're meant to do and get it right. Yeah, but, yeah, as I said, it would feel a little bit like you haven't stretched yet and it feels a bit cold. Feels. I don't know this person and I'm, yeah, getting into a conversation that's potentially meaty, but I don't know who the person is. I need to get to know them a little bit more. I need to. You know what it is? I think small talk helps Brits understand the feeling and energy of that individual that they're speaking with. Because we don't say how we are actually feeling. You have to read between the lines, don't you?
[00:04:01] Speaker A: That's fantastic. We need to carve that in stone somewhere. We will attribute that quote to you as well to get the feel of the room. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: Love that.
Yeah. Do you feel like that as well? You wouldn't be able to jump in there straight away.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think it's the warm up before the gym. You've got to stretch off, understand the individual you're. You're engaging with.
And it's funny because this. Just to loop it in with the theme of this episode, the origins. And I only referenced this before the we started today is apparently it comes from the Victorian era where everything was very formal. We. We had to have chit chat before we got down to business. So in the tea rooms or perhaps some of the drinking houses, everybody had a little bit of a chit chat before getting down to business. Or at least business was being conducted in social areas as well. So it's really deeply entwined in our culture from a couple hundred years ago.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I can't imagine it wasn't around though. Do you feel like you. Because in. In all cultures there must be some form of warming up a little bit. Right. We probably do it more than some and maybe less than some. But yes, you know, it just feels like it's human nature to some degree.
[00:05:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:18] Speaker B: To have a bit of a chit chat, as you said.
What do you think?
[00:05:23] Speaker A: It's a good one. I'm only, I can only speak from experience. I work with a lot of Eastern European cultures, a couple of them here in the uk, couple of groups and communities.
And on several occasions, we haven't been very far past hello before the pitch is coming in. There's a strong pitch coming up right. Right behind the hello, how are you? Thing. And so this is why I feel that it's important to make sure that in at least the British isle, the uk we should probably stretch off before getting on the treadmill.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: Yes, yes. That's interesting to think about it. Yeah. Obviously in the workplace, somebody comes in, does a. Is about to do a presentation and if they don't do a bit of small talk, then that would be a bit strange. Yeah, totally agree. I'm just imagining in, outside of the workplace there must be chit chat elsewhere. It's got to be.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:06:18] Speaker B: But yeah, yeah, interesting.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: So many tips. What would you say? So native living in London, you are in the epicenter of small talk there in London.
How would you say if an alien from outer space landed on the planet, if they're not already here, how would you tell them how to conduct small talk? What pointers would you give them?
[00:06:41] Speaker B: Nice. Okay, so I would say try to focus on commonality that you are sharing with that person in the room, in the environment that you're in. Comment on the thing that is potentially the most controversial as well. So if, because it allows for both of you to have an opinion, but you're both observing something that you're doing together. I don't know. I mean, that is why we talk about the weather as well. Because you can have a preference of something and that is a shared thing that you're having. You're sharing that day's nice weather or terrible weather. And again, we're indirect. So I'm going to quote Kate Fox, who has a lovely book on British culture or English culture, and she says that we're not actually saying how nice it is today. We're not actually saying what the weather is like. We're not stating the weather forecast. We're actually saying our mood. If we're pointing out that it is a lovely day, it's because we feel really positive. If we're pointing out the obvious gray day, it's. It means that it's got us really down and we're not feeling so resilient.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: That's Great. I really like that. Okay, so Kate Fox, book on. Is it English culture?
[00:07:58] Speaker B: Yes. Watching the English by Kate Fox.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: Wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. Okay.
[00:08:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:03] Speaker A: Watching the English by Kate Fox. Very interesting what you were saying, how, how we see things. And I always make this differentiation between our American cousins across the other side of the pond and ourselves here on Old Blighty. I feel that there is this difference. If I ask you how you are, you respond with something like not too bad, could be worse, can't complain. All these negative, yeah, probably negative ideas where if you ask our American cousins, absolutely amazing, Fantastic. Couldn't be better. And I think, okay, there's definitely a shift in mindset. Any thoughts on that?
[00:08:46] Speaker B: Yeah, loads. Loads to say here.
Where to start? So our culture comes from a class based system. Their culture comes from a possibility to have the American dream. You are whatever you want to make yourself. The possibilities are endless. We have this sort of controlling society that, yeah.
Refrains us from having succeeded beyond our peers.
We can't go too far until.
Unless we are bold enough to stand above the crowd.
And with that we have this sort of humor that deals with it. And our humor is quite black, quite dark and it creates an environment where talking down on something is quite funny. And because we talk down on it, we use these kind of turns of phrases that are really subtle and we love the subtleties. I think we pride ourselves in understanding this sarcastic, subtle comment that our American cousins might miss. And it's because of this contrast that we can understand a negative comment versus a positive comment hidden in a negative frame.
Fantastic.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: That is a really, really interesting insight. The idea of we don't want to be too bold and stick our head above the parapet where on the other side you are actively encouraged to live the American dream. That very interesting insight. Thanks for that. Enjoyed that.
Okay, so small talk, yes, absolutely fundamental here in the uk.
Strong origins throughout history here, potentially even further back than the Victorian period.
A few tips on how to do it and some differences between ourselves and our American cousins.
Moving on to the next key components potentially of British business. English is formality.
Formality in your worldly experience, Charlie, here in the UK and obviously traveling around the world because you've lived in many different locations over the last decade or so. How important is formality in our culture when we're in professional scenarios compared to where else you've lived in the world? Chile, for example.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: Yeah. So I've also spent some time in Australia and it's very obvious there they have a different rule, maybe, or the boundary has shifted somewhat.
[00:11:09] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:09] Speaker B: To the pompous, pretentious British formal gentry. Like on the radio. I think a radio is a really good example of cult. You can tap into it so accessibly. It's brilliant. As soon as you get to a country, put on their radio and just see what they're broadcasting and the way that they're communicating to one another. Because it's often very back and forth, which is real dialogue, isn't it?
[00:11:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: And I was astonished when I got there that they would have people on to talk about their sex life. They would like on the radio. Yeah, on the radio. On the radio they would talk about their sex life. They would swear quite a lot. And just the vulgar sort of comments of toilet behaviors.
[00:11:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:11:53] Speaker B: Or just anything that a Brit would just be like, oh, no, you can't say that on air.
It felt like they were fine with it.
And it just made me appreciate that we really do have an awareness of a formal conversation in an informal environment.
To put it easily though, it's the pub versus the boardroom. Those are the two groups. Or maybe also the formal wedding, maybe.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that. That's a really interesting difference that you've made there. The pub or the boardroom or the wedding.
When you're in certain situations, you should probably get the formality. Right. Still, I still feel that it's relevant here in the uk, the formality elements. I think there may be some effects from the US or other English speaking cultures where we're starting to be a bit more informal in the way that we interact with each other. I must say that. But there are certain scenarios where it comes off as a bit too much. I can think of an example of going to buy a house.
You've just got out of your car and you're walking up the drive and the guy comes out of the house you're about to view and potentially buy.
All right, mate?
Are you addressing the econ, sir? The idea of somebody greeting you is that, all right, mates, when potentially you're about to part with hundreds of thousands of pounds. I feel that it was misjudged in a way. What do you think about this idea of meeting or formality within certain professional frames? Yeah.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: I'm going to go straight back to Australia again. So I went to a flat viewing an apartment in their terms, and the guy used the C bomb.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: Amazing.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Okay, he used the C word within the first five minutes of knowing him. He wasn't saying it to me, but he was describing maybe the people around or something like that. I can't remember what it was, but I just could not believe.
[00:13:51] Speaker A: I do beg your pardon, sir. Misheard you.
[00:13:54] Speaker B: I must leave immediately. Yeah, wow.
[00:13:58] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: Yes, misjudging the formality is a big no. No. And yes, younger generations are more relaxed. We're slipping away from a class based system. But it's still there. There's still a huge hangover. And anyone, millennials and older still feel it very much. I think it's important to appreciate it.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: I like that. I like that. Another fantastic insight. Thank you very much for that.
And then finally, a little bit of a flourish here is linguistic flair. This is something that I wanted to talk about with you because you are the kingpin at the British English podcast. And so linguistic flair, the way in which we execute our language within a professional scenario, I think it says a lot about a person. I'm not saying using long words and flowery language is always the best thing to do because often it's not. But certainly for the audience today, understanding how to balance plain language with something a little bit fancier or using an idiomatic expression or some colloquial terms, how that really works for you in a professional scenario. Do you have any thoughts on that?
[00:15:05] Speaker B: Yes, I do. I think I'm going to go culture led again and say how I think, because British people, we can't say, I'm amazing, I feel fantastic. We can't be bold with that. We've got to be indirect.
We get playful with our comedy, our humor. And this is where, like, fun turns of phrases or fun sort of ways of looking at a situation, bring the detail and the personality out of a British person. But we're still able to hide behind our sort of keep calm and carry on collected facade. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So we can be witty. We're allowed to be very intellectually clever and funny.
[00:15:49] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: But we've got to do it in a dry sense.
And I think, yeah, I think the linguistic flair comes out in these kind of things. Like a simple thing. Like if you say, if you're trying to describe something like I, I'm very wet, like from the rain.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: I look like a drowned rat right now.
[00:16:09] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: Like adding a little bit of imagination to your language. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be advanced vocabulary. It's just playful and imaginative and I think that's where we enjoy it the most.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: I think that's a really good example. And for me, this drowned rat idea, you bring things into 3D. It goes from black and white into color. Really Nice example.
And bringing that into the office where things can be quite dry or business negotiations a bit stale, using something like this can almost breathe a bit of life back into the conversation.
Linguistic flair. Yes.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Yes. I just realized, actually, I suppose I haven't been in a traditional office, but things have on my podcast have led to various meetings with companies and on Zoom. So that is like business talk.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: Definitely.
[00:16:58] Speaker B: And yeah, we have to use small talk at the beginning massively. And linguistic flair comes up there because if it's a bit dry and I'm meant to be the podcaster that has a bit of personality, it's feels like it's on me to keep the energy up in the Zoom room.
[00:17:14] Speaker A: Absolutely. That keeping the energy up in a conversation like that and using these words, idiomatic expressions. Absolutely. Does the job. Absolutely. Yes.
[00:17:23] Speaker B: Yeah. But the fun language and just experimenting with it a little bit and being playful, I think that's quite important because if it's just the sort of traditional run of the mill language that everyone knows or the expected kind of route to get a little kind of comment, people just nod along to that and they don't tune in as much.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:47] Speaker B: It's hard when learning a language to be in this next step and thinking about it, but I think at the same time it's a fantastic opportunity. Like my Danish friend, he said that he's got a new personality in English and he's actually more funny. Like he. He's allowed to be more sarcastic. It invites it for him and he loves it for that reason.
[00:18:08] Speaker A: Yeah. I was having a conversation with a client earlier this week about why your person, this other individual I was working with, his personality changes in English for some reason. I like tea more when I'm speaking English or something like this. More jovial, more childlike, in some cases, more funny. Yeah. Funnier, Definitely.
[00:18:27] Speaker B: Yeah. So I was. I would recommend people listen to more stand up comedy if they wanted to get these kind of just imaginative ways of looking at life. I feel like that's a good resource
[00:18:40] Speaker A: and it's a good frame.
[00:18:42] Speaker B: Challenging their listening practice as well.
[00:18:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. Lots of colloquial expressions there.
The idea of. Because an argument that often comes back is, well, if I'm dealing with other non native speakers, they may not understand this colloquial expression, this idiom, but I would say. I don't know what your opinion is on this, but this idea. Well, if you use the idiom or the expression within good context, they may not need to understand. They will get what, what it means. From the surrounding idea. So using colloquial expressions sparingly, but just to enhance that little bit of color. What are your thoughts on that?
[00:19:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's something that I'm aware of too, and I would say that it's good to do sparingly. Yeah. Don't want to alienate your listeners or your. The people that you're conversing with. But it's also quite good to level up the conversation a little bit. If everyone's using B1 language, be that person that uses a few B2 phrases or C1 phrases. I don't use it too much, but just help them be aware that you can raise the bar if you want to.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: That's great. Linguistic flair. Raising the bar. Brilliant. Yeah, brilliant. That was a very quick canter through those three elements there. Small talk, formality and linguistic flair and their roots in British business history.
Any last and final comments on any of that?
[00:20:12] Speaker B: Nothing particularly to sign off with anything profound? No, probably not. But it was a pleasure and thank you very much, Rob, for inviting me on.
It was really good fun. I like your approach to language. It feel like you've got this calm undertone about you that brings about the advanced vocabulary or colloquialisms as well, which is lovely.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: Thank you for that, Charlie. I must afford you the same compliment there. If you're not listening to the British English podcast, quite frankly. Where have you been? Please follow the link in the show notes over to the. See more of Charlie's great material. Charlie, wishing you the best week.
[00:20:48] Speaker B: All the best, Rob. Thanks again, guys. See you soon.
[00:20:50] Speaker A: Thank you.
